MILES PARKS, HOST:
Starting around Thanksgiving, my Kindle is basically exclusively Irish detective novels. I mean, when it's cold outside, is there anything cozier? That genre, the whodunit genre, has also had a big resurgence on the screen as well, with the success of the "Knives Out" franchise. The latest, "Wake Up Dead Man," is in theaters now and also streaming on Netflix.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "WAKE UP DEAD MAN: A KNIVES OUT MYSTERY")
JOSH O'CONNOR: (As Fr. Jud Duplenticy) Here's what's going to happen. Benoit freaking Blanc and I are going to ask you all some questions, and you're going to answer them. We're going to get to the bottom of who killed Monsignor Wix and why. And then that's it.
PARKS: What about the genre has been so durable? To discuss, we brought in two fans who will help me get to the bottom of it - Linda Holmes, host of Pop Culture Happy Hour, and NPR senior editor Barrie Hardymon. Welcome to you both.
BARRIE HARDYMON, BYLINE: Hi.
LINDA HOLMES, BYLINE: Hi.
PARKS: Linda, you've seen the new "Knives Out," right? I mean, what did you think of that? How did it compare to the first two?
HOLMES: I actually really, really like it. I've seen it twice. The first time I saw it, I really liked it. The second time I saw it, I really loved it. I think that it's the most sort of soulful of these films. It has a story that is deeply about faith. It's a story about a monsignor who is murdered, and the suspect is a young priest who had clashed with him.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "WAKE UP DEAD MAN: A KNIVES OUT MYSTERY")
O'CONNOR: (As Fr. Jud Duplenticy) Everyone thinks I did it. I didn't do it.
DANIEL CRAIG: (As Benoit Blanc) This goes way beyond normal police work. This is something you and I have not experienced.
HOLMES: And it winds up being really a story between the young priest, who's played by Josh O'Connor, and Benoit Blanc, who's played by Daniel Craig. And they really become close, despite the fact that they have very serious differences in how they see the world. It's still a funny movie, and it's still a fun movie. But I think it's very emotionally satisfying, this one. I really liked it a lot.
PARKS: Linda just touched on there, Barrie, a few different themes that I feel like - having not seen the new one, but I do feel like the humor is a big part of at least the first one. I just - I think I've seen that movie, like, 15 or 20 times, and it still hits. What is it about this franchise that does it for you?
HARDYMON: I think partly it is all of the elements of - you know, I mean, there is a predictable structure. It is made to feel like a - like an old-fashioned, golden age whodunit, you know? You're - often, you're in a cozy house, and there are - you know, there's red herrings. And although I will say, I think the first one is more of a whydunit (ph). So I think that is really great. And then you really - I mean, and I think this is something we haven't really talked about yet, which is that the detective, the sleuth has to be so charming. He is so charming.
HOLMES: Well, and he always comes into the story to help someone.
HARDYMON: That's such a good point.
HOLMES: I think that's a big part of what makes him an engaging character, and it's true here, too, with Josh O'Connor. But it's true in the other two stories, too. He comes on the scene not only to solve the murder, but also to help someone.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "WAKE UP DEAD MAN: A KNIVES OUT MYSTERY")
MILA KUNIS: (As Chief Geraldine Scott) This case is solvable, right?
CRAIG: (As Benoit Blanc) Well, I'm incapable of not solving a crime. Oh, you'll see. It's fun.
PARKS: So we have already established that mystery stories are cozy.
HARDYMON: Oh, yeah.
PARKS: Do you guys have any thought on why that is?
HARDYMON: I mean, I think, in general - right? - it's kind of because they are in adorable, cozy settings. Like, it's charming. It's - you're - there's, like, a bookstore. You're in a small community. Usually, the sleuth is a - kind of is maybe an amateur and maybe, like, a nice old lady often. But I think those are the kinds of movies that we do gravitate towards and why they're so cozy.
PARKS: Linda, do you have any thoughts on that?
HOLMES: Yeah, I mean, I think Barrie's got it exactly right. It has to do with setting. It also has to do with the comforting way that a whodunit generally unravels itself, and you ultimately get to a central solution. I think there's something cozy about resolution...
HARDYMON: Yes.
HOLMES: ...That you don't always find in other kinds of drama where perhaps it's going to leave you hanging.
PARKS: Ah, that's interesting. It's almost - you feel safer reading it or watching it, knowing that, like, this is...
HOLMES: Oh, yeah.
PARKS: ...Probably going to resolve someplace that's going to leave me satisfied.
HOLMES: Oh, yeah.
HARDYMON: It's like a rom-com but with blood.
PARKS: (Laughter).
HOLMES: It is. It is.
PARKS: So let's break this down a little bit further. What makes a great whodunit? What are the elements that go into that?
HOLMES: To me, if you're really talking about a whodunit, you need three things. You need a murder. And it has to be a murder people are going to care about, or the story won't work. You need a murder. You need a detective or some other kind of investigator, and you need multiple identifiable suspects. So if the detective is just starting from zero - I wonder who did it, and they're investigating, going all around - that's not to me whodunit. Whodunit is detective looks around, sees all the people who could have done it and goes from there.
There are variations on that, you know, if you look at something like "And Then There Were None," which is a classic Agatha Christie, there's not really a detective. It's 10 suspects kind of all looking at each other as they start knocking each other off, but nobody knows who's doing it. You can do it that way. "Clue" is a little bit like that in some ways - but typically, detective, you know, whether it's Miss Marple or Poirot or Benoit Blanc or whoever it might be.
PARKS: One of the interesting things about him, and I think this is - I'm curious to get your guys' take on this in the detective genre - is that this actually is a parallel to "Only Murders In The Building," which has also obviously been really popular on TV as a whodunit.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "ONLY MURDERS IN THE BUILDING")
SELENA GOMEZ: (As Mabel Mora) Look at all these cops.
AARON DOMINGUEZ: (As Oscar Torres) Yeah, nothing more calming after 10 years of lockup than your home swarming with blue.
STEVE MARTIN: (As Charles-Haden Savage) Yes, but this should make everyone feel good. The pros are on it now.
MARTIN SHORT: (As Oliver Putnam) And by pros, you mean the people who missed everything the amateurs found?
PARKS: In both cases, these are not police officers, per se, solving these crimes. Is there anything to that - that, like...
HARDYMON: Yeah.
PARKS: Is it more fun watching some outside person try to solve this crime as opposed to the traditional sort of law enforcement?
HARDYMON: I mean, I think, absolutely, that is a - an almost requirement of the genre that it be an amateur sleuth. I mean, that's why - and not actually law enforcement, you know, I mean, that's always the thing. It's a private eye, right? It's someone who's outside of the law to some extent. Yes, certainly there are exceptions to that, but I do think it's, the - you know, the idea of an amateur sleuth is inviting the viewer in, is saying, hey, you, too...
PARKS: You can do this too, basically.
HARDYMON: You can find that necklace.
HOLMES: Right. And you also - the amateur sleuth also is more likely to be underestimated...
HARDYMON: Yes.
HOLMES: ...By the people who are involved, and therefore, you can root for them a little bit more. I've seen plenty of whodunits that have police officers or police detectives as their central investigator. But I do think that when you use an amateur - and I - you know, in "Knives Out," he's not exactly an amateur. It's clearly what he does, but he's not law enforcement.
HARDYMON: Right, he's a private detective. Right.
PARKS: Well, for people who maybe they have watched, at this point already, the new "Knives Out," and they're, like, still hungry - they've got, like, three more months of winter to grind other whodunits - do you guys have any recommendations on other favorites?
HOLMES: Well, one that I would mention - you know, we talked about that "Knives Out" often feels very cozy house or whatever. "Glass Onion," which is the second one, which takes place on a private island, the aesthetic of that was very much influenced by a movie called "The Last Of Sheila"...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE LAST OF SHEILA")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) What's the game?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Well, the idea is to discover everybody's secret.
HOLMES: ...Which was actually written by Anthony Perkins and Stephen Sondheim, which I think is such a...
HARDYMON: What?
PARKS: Whoa.
HOLMES: ...Fun, fun pedigree.
PARKS: I did not know that.
HOLMES: Yeah.
HARDYMON: That is so wild.
HOLMES: And "The Last Of Sheila" was a big influence on Rian Johnson, and if you've never seen "The Last Of Sheila," you can find it for rent, you know, digitally. It's really fun. It's a fun film.
HARDYMON: I really would say - again, because, you know, for me, a component of this to be, you know, really, like, a wintry feel, I do want an old one - do not sleep on "The Thin Man." "The Thin Man" are a series of films starring William Powell and Myrna Loy and, of course, their dog Asta.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE THIN MAN")
FRED MALATESTA: (As Joe) Madam, I'm afraid we shall take the dog out.
WILLIAM POWELL: (As Nick Charles) Oh, it's all right, Joe. It's all right. It's my dog and my wife.
MYRNA LOY: (As Nora Charles) Well, you might have mentioned me first on the billing.
HARDYMON: With this one, instead of the cozy factor, it's really more of a glamour factor. In fact, my favorite thing is that, you know, it's a married couple, but whenever they have to go put their heads together to start solving it, they go directly to the bar. And if you actually keep a count on how many, you know, martinis they've had, it is remarkable that they solve any mysteries, let alone the mystery of how to get themselves out of the house.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE THIN MAN")
LOY: (As Nora Charles) Say, how many drinks have you had?
POWELL: (As Nick Charles) This will make six martinis.
LOY: (As Nora Charles) All right. Will you bring me five more martinis? Leo, line them right up here.
LEO WHITE: (As Leo) Yes, ma'am.
HARDYMON: Anyway, those are so, so, so cozy, but I also just - I want to put in a plug for the - "Gosford Park" still slaps.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "GOSFORD PARK")
BOB BALABAN: (As Morris Weissman) It's a detective story.
CLAUDIE BLAKLEY: (As Mabel Nesbitt) Set in London?
BALABAN: (As Morris Weissman) Well, not really. Most of it takes place at a shooting party in a country house, sort of like this one, actually - murder in the middle of the night, a lot of guests for the weekend. Everyone's a suspect, you know, that sort of thing.
MAGGIE SMITH: (As Constance Trentham) How horrid.
HARDYMON: If you are a person that, you know, wants to have "Downton Abbey" crossed with, you know, a whodunit, that is an absolute - just a really, really lovely, well done, looks gorgeous - and it hits a lot of the same notes as "Knives Out" but in a slightly more polite way.
PARKS: That's NPR's Barrie Hardymon and Linda Holmes. Thanks to you both.
HOLMES: Thank you.
HARDYMON: Thank you.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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