MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
You might think Marco Rubio already has a lot on his plate, what with being President Trump's secretary of state and Trump's national security adviser. Is Rubio now adding to his portfolio governing the country of Venezuela? Now, there is a lot we do not know about what comes next in that country. We do know Rubio is playing a central role now that Nicolás Maduro has been ousted as president. John Hudson covers Secretary Rubio as national security reporter for The Washington Post. He's with me now. Hey there.
JOHN HUDSON: Hey. Good to be with you.
KELLY: So you had a story the other day headlined - and I quote - "Rubio Takes On Most Challenging Role Yet: Viceroy Of Venezuela." Viceroy - is that overstating the role we expect to see Rubio stepping up to play?
HUDSON: (Laughter) Well, it is a bit of a cheeky application of a colonial-era term, but it does really represent the outsized role and influence that Rubio has in the administration overall Venezuela policy. And it also conveys the importance that the United States has right now in terms of influencing the state of affairs in Venezuela. And there's nobody that Trump relies on more right now than Marco Rubio to execute his policy.
KELLY: Rubio's parents are Cuban. They left Cuba in the 1950s. That was before the rise of Fidel Castro and his whole communist government. Do we know how that informs his perspective in terms of what he would like to see play out in the region?
HUDSON: Yes, I think that the road to understanding Marco Rubio's views on Venezuela - Rubio, a Cuban American who came up in Republican Florida politics - that is a place where anti-Castro, anti-Cuban regime sentiment is in the DNA of almost all Republican Florida politicians. And so ever since Rubio has been a politician, he has been calling for regime change in Cuba. And for many Cuba watchers, they have long felt that because of the historic ties between the Venezuelan regime and the Cuban regime, if the Venezuelan domino falls, then the Cuban domino could fall as well. And so those have been the chief adversaries of a lot of the Cuba hawks in the United States.
KELLY: So to focus us on this moment, President Trump says the U.S. is running Venezuela for the foreseeable future. Rubio has sounded a little more hands-off. I want to play - this is a little bit of Rubio speaking. This was an interview on ABC News.
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MARCO RUBIO: What we are running is the direction that this is going to move moving forward. And that is we have leverage. This leverage we are using, and we intend to use, we started using already.
KELLY: So he was talking about economic leverage. But the president says the U.S. is running Venezuela. Rubio's saying, what we're running is the direction this is moving. Is there daylight between the president and his secretary of state on the way forward?
HUDSON: Well, there's certainly rhetorical daylight. After the president said that the United States would be running Venezuela, there were tons of questions, a lot of confusion. It has been Rubio's job to articulate what that means. And what we're finding out is that what it means is the United States is not installing new leadership. It is not putting Americans in formal positions of the Venezuelan government. What it is doing is attempting to dictate the policies of the Venezuelan government through the art of coercion and the threat of violence.
KELLY: So do we know - has Rubio articulated what he would consider success in Venezuela? Do we know for Rubio what the endgame is?
HUDSON: I think we do. And again, what he articulates has some rhetorical daylight between what the president articulates. Rubio has had a more expansive goal for what he has talked about when it comes to Venezuela. He's said, you know, they're no longer going to be in cahoots with governments that the United States doesn't like. But Trump has been much more narrowly focused. He has said we're getting the oil, and we also want to stem the flow of immigration.
KELLY: Last thing, John Hudson, for those who may be wondering when on earth Marco Rubio is going to find time to sleep - how is it possible to do all of these jobs? How on earth does one person juggle it?
HUDSON: I mean, it's a great question. Rubio is wearing a ton of hats right now. And I have talked to government officials, including Republicans in the current State Department, who have said, look, this is a extremely taxing job. When it comes to exerting influence over Venezuela and devising U.S. policy on Venezuela, there are so many decisions. People have said that the administration really should appoint an envoy or a point person who can be in charge of these things. Rubio, given his job as the top diplomat and the national security adviser, he's going to be stretched very thin. But of course, this is the moment that Rubio has pushed for his entire life. He's been seeking change in Venezuela. And so one can expect him to be very focused on this - as focused as much as he can - because this is truly what he's been building up to his entire life.
KELLY: John Hudson, national security reporter at The Washington Post, thank you.
HUDSON: Great to be with you.
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